age old question: build or buy

Post by **FlyingPenguin** » Fri Nov 28, 2008 11:26 pm

Don't shortchange yourself. I've seen a lot of systems ruined due to an inadequate PSU.

That is NOT a good PSU if you intend to do any gaming (it's just fine for a non-gaming system). It does not have enough power for a modern 3D video card. The ATI 4850 requires a minimum of 30 amps on the 12 volt rails and that's a BARE minimum, not a realistic number. Realistically 36 amps is the minimum I would recommend. If you don't have enough power, you'll be crashing or BSODing during games.

WATTAGE is NOT important. The amperage of the 12 volt rails is. That PSU you picked out has two 12 volt rails: one at 14 amps and one at 15 amps (total 29 amps). That's even less than the PSU in the average budget OEM system.

So look for a minimum of two 12 volt rails (more would be better) with a minimum combined amperage of 36 amps (more would be better) and you also ideally want a PSU with the "80 plus" rating which means that it's more than 80% power efficient.

Newegg has a lot of PSUs to choose from. Look through them carefully. Some quick searches came up with these which are the best bang for the buck if you're trying to get as inexpensive a PSU as possible:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6817152035 ($34.98 after $30.00 Mail-In)
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6817342015 ($40)

Another recommendation I would make is to go with the recommended Crucial RAM for that mobo unless you're planning on overclocking (and there's no real reason to overclock anymore): http://crucial.com/store/mpartspecs.asp ... D3A5CA7304

With the Crucial RAM you're guaranteed that it will work on that mobo. The problem with buying off the shelf performance RAM is you often have to tweak the RAM timing on the mobo to make it run stable. Just another stability failure point that can cause you all kinds of grief later on when you don't know why your system is occasionall BSODing.

Also be aware that unless you install a 64bit OS you will only see 3Gb of that 4Gb RAM.

Hope this helps...

b-man1 · Post by **b-man1** » Fri Nov 28, 2008 11:38 pm

yikes...looks like i'll revisit the PSU choice! what was the recommendation you were going to link to? it didn't make it through in your post.

edit:

hmmm...sorry...i missed half of what you posted or you just edited it.

thanks for the info!

Key Keeper · Post by **Key Keeper** » Sat Nov 29, 2008 12:26 am

Silverstone makes a fantastic psu not cheap though, I have had the same one for 3 years and not a single problem. I broke the fan by forcing it in the case and they sent me a new one and paid the shipping. Great cases too but again... not cheap

Err · Post by **Err** » Sat Nov 29, 2008 9:42 am

FlyingPenguin wrote:
Another recommendation I would make is to go with the recommended Crucial RAM for that mobo unless you're planning on overclocking (and there's no real reason to overclock anymore): http://crucial.com/store/mpartspecs.asp ... D3A5CA7304

With the Crucial RAM you're guaranteed that it will work on that mobo. The problem with buying off the shelf performance RAM is you often have to tweak the RAM timing on the mobo to make it run stable. Just another stability failure point that can cause you all kinds of grief later on when you don't know why your system is occasionall BSODing.

I leaned this the hard way when I built my current system. I already had 2 x 1G Patriot Memory in my previous MB that died. I never had any stability problems with it. When I bought my current MB, I also purchased and addition 2 x 1G of the same memory. I had random BSOD for about a month until I saw that the Bios set the timings and voltage wrong.

When I upgrade, I'm buying Crucial. Up to this recent build, I'd always used it. I was suckered into the Patriot by rebates.

I would also avoid Sapphire brand video cards. I had nothing my problems with the last one I owned. The only driver I could get to work with it was the driver that came on the disk. I would recommend a BFG or EVGA NVidia video card because both manufacturers carry lifetime warranties (provided you register them).

ZYFER · Post by **ZYFER** » Sat Nov 29, 2008 10:14 am

When going with video cards, I go with nothing but BFG Tech. They run great great, and if you ever have problems with it, there is a lifetime warranty with no issues with replacing it.

As for your motherboard choice, well first, Newegg is out of stock... I just bought this one:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6813128359

I dropped some Corsair memory into that board, not issues at all. In the Gigabyte board I am using now, I have Geil memory in it.

I'd also look at the Core 2 Quads. They have some good prices on them.
This is what I got for a PSU from BFG Tech:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6817702008

It has Quad 12v rails at 16A each.

Post by **FlyingPenguin** » Sat Nov 29, 2008 1:00 pm

I would second the vote for EVGA or BFG cards. Rock solid and good warranties.

normalicy · Post by **normalicy** » Sat Nov 29, 2008 1:36 pm

Yeah, Sapphire lost my loyalty back in the ATI 8500 days. Wouldn't replace the fan on my 3 month old card.

CrazyBones · Post by **CrazyBones** » Thu Dec 04, 2008 9:07 pm

I really have to ask this question but does building your own rig really save a lot of money? I'm planning on buying a gaming rig sometime 2009 and I've been seriously considering building a rig myself. I've had experience changing RAM, video cards, and network cards which probably is nothing compared to building a rig from scratch but I suppose I might be up for the challenge. When you buy your parts from somewhere the retailer will offer to build it for you. How much do retailers usually charge for building it for you?

normalicy · Post by **normalicy** » Fri Dec 05, 2008 2:40 am

It really isn't worth it if you are trying to save money. Like said above, just buy a Dell or the like & upgrade it. That said, there is a lot of experience gained from building a PC yourself. If I had only used what was given to me all these years, I'd be fumbling around like so many of my friends when I have a problem.

EvilHorace · Post by **EvilHorace** » Fri Dec 05, 2008 6:41 am

There are often unforeseen hassles when you build, many problems that you weren't planning on. I suppose there are exceptions but that's been my experience. I'd think that if you were to use parts that you knew another guy just assembled w/o any problems, then I'd think it'd go smoothly. I'd also think it'd be easiest with a new, store bought OS and today I think I'd go with Vista Home (does require more memory, 2bg).

As for Dell, they sell cheaper PCs and costlier PCs depending on what you're looking for. If you're looking for high end and great gaming, it gets costlier.
One I was recently looking at was about $900 (not even optimized), no monitor, not including shipping.

Post by **FlyingPenguin** » Fri Dec 05, 2008 9:05 am

You need to know where to look on Dell's site. The front page is for suckers.

This page has weekly business division specials (never buy from the home division if you can help it, just use your name as your company name): http://www.dell.com/content/products/fe ... l=en&s=bsd

Also keep an eye on this page for Dell coupon specials: http://gotapex.com

Last week Dell had a really nice deal on the Vostro 410. I got it heavily loaded for a client: Core 2 Duo 2.66/1330MHz FSB, 2Gb RAM, 250Gb HDD, DVD-RW, Radeon HD 3450, 20" LCD, Vista Business w/XP Pro downgrade (you get both installers), 1 year on-site warranty for $649

Drop an extra 1Gb in it and a Geforce 8800GT and that would be a very nice gaming rig.

I help clients order from Dell all the time, and there is an art to picking out a good deal on their site. If anyone wants me to price something out for them LMK. I do this all the time and I'm good at it. I can put it in a shopping cart for you.

Be aware of the following tips when buying from Dell:

1) The default processor that comes with the systems on that deals page can often be upgraded for very little to a much better processor. In the case of the cheap budget systems like the Vostro 400, the default CPU is not even a Core 2 Duo so you really want to spend another $30 - $40 on a CPU upgrade. The high end systems usually already have a nice CPU but consider, for instance, upgrading from a 2.4GHz/1066 Quad core to a much faster 2.66GHz /1333 for just $20. Most people don't need a quad core.

2) If you want XP Pro, Dell will pre-install it if you upgrade to Vista Business ($59 - $99) which legally entitles you to an XP downgrade (you get both installer discs). Some of the specials, though, will include the XP downgrade for free (they're doing that with the Vostro 410 this month). HOWEVER keep in mind that if you already have a factory XP install CD from Dell lying around, it will install XP on ANY Dell (it's a bios locked OEM installer - no COA required). Not strictly legal but hey, IMO anyone who buys any version of Vista should be able to downgrade to XP if they want.

3) Compare the price of any RAM upgrade to the cost from Crucial. If a Dell Vostro 410 bundle comes with 2Gb and you're thinking of upgrading it to 4Gb, you may find that the 2Gb upgrade from Crucial is cheaper than getting it installed with the Dell (often half the price).

4) Be aware that Dell is not selling any systems with Vista x64 yet so you will only see 3 - 3.5 Gb on any of their systems with Vista 32 even if you have 4Gb installed. HOWEVER if you order Vista Business or Ultimate your COA is good for a Vista 64 install. You just need to obtain a Vista 64 installer disc. You can download an MSDN ISO from Microsoft or even from torrents.

5) Dell let's you order a PC with very little crapware installed. Go down the list and uncheck anything you don't want like trial versions of offsite backups and security software.

6) When you check out, make sure to select 3 - 5 day ground shipping which is free (except for the really cheap budget systems). Sometimes the shipping defaults to a more expensive option.

7) Consider upgrading the warranty. Most of these business systems come with a 1 year next business day on-site warranty (althoug hthe Optiplex systems come with a very nice 3 year warranty and I usually order those for business offices). Often a on-site warranty can be upgraded from 1 year to 2 years for just $30. That's worth it.

Around here they use a very good subcontractor out of Ocala. You call Monday about a dead mobo, they're at your door Tuesday with a new mobo in hand. Even if you're like me and don't want another tech installing it, they will happily ship the part to you 2 day air (Advanced RMA) and include a pre-paid return shipping label for the bad part. You can't beat that.

eGoCeNTRoNiX · Post by **eGoCeNTRoNiX** » Fri Dec 05, 2008 9:50 am

FlyingPenguin wrote:Last week Dell had a really nice deal on the Vostro 410. I got it heavily loaded for a client: Core 2 Duo 2.66/1330MHz FSB, 2Gb RAM, 250Gb HDD, DVD-RW, Radeon HD 3450, 20" LCD, Vista Business w/XP Pro downgrade (you get both installers), 1 year on-site warranty for $649

Drop an extra 1Gb in it and a Geforce 8800GT and that would be a very nice gaming rig.

Ok.. Hate to sound like a broken record here.. But IF you have to add the VidCard and extra Ram, I come pretty close to matching Dell's Price and you get Quad Core CPU and 4GB of RAM, 500GB HD.... Seems like while it may not save you any money, you're getting more bang for your buck.. If you want to tackle building your own, which some of the Old Farts here don't (lol Couldn't resist FP), then do it. Sure, you won't save any cash, but you should be able to build a BETTER computer for the same amount of money give or take $20-$30.. Just remember to take your time and set aside a few hours to get everything put together and set up the way you like it. It takes me about 2.5 hours from start to fully installed XP Box. But I've been building them for a little while..

But, again make your own choices, I just wanted at least one or two posts in this thread SUPPORTING what we do instead of trying to outsource ourselves.

eGo

EvilHorace · Post by **EvilHorace** » Fri Dec 05, 2008 10:43 am

Hmmm, I can build a Vostro 400, 2gb memory, no monitor (not needed), no extra anything, basic video card for $550 which isn't bad really.

I wish you could opt out of the video card completely for more money off as my new one's better, don't need another video card.
Their asking too much for the 8800GT btw (+$250).

Post by **FlyingPenguin** » Fri Dec 05, 2008 8:45 pm

EGO: I understand that, but some of us don't have the free time to build our own rigs anymore and/or don't want the aggravation. My time is worth money too. If I spend a day building myself a rig, that's a substantial amount of money I'm losing if I otherwise could work 3 service calls that day. And it's hard finding time on a weekend.

Until this last rig I've always built my own. The problem with building your own is there's almost always some snag: maybe a driver issue, maybe RAM timing issues, etc. This last rig was a dream: unbox it, pop my own vid card in (which I pulled out of my old rig so it didn't cost me anything) and VIOLA! Up and running.

Next rig will be the same. I've been building my own for 20 years and I'm over it.

EVIL: You actually usually get a better deal from that page I posted WITH a monitor because of the way they bundle them (not this week though on the 410). Even if you don't need the monitor, then sell it or upgrade the wife's.

The high-end vid cards are never worth ordering pre-installed from Dell, they charge too much. It's always better to just get the cheap card with it and swap it out for your own. Then you have a spare card to sell, as a backup, or for testing.

EvilHorace · Post by **EvilHorace** » Fri Dec 05, 2008 10:19 pm

The wifes PC is a Dell laptop and there's only one Desktop here now that's in use, has a Dell wide screen monitor too.

Another option for some, not yet mentioned here is buying what's called a "bare-bones" system. Google that and you'll see.

When I upgrade, being that I don't need a case, video card, DVD drive(s)/burners, power supply, or HDD, I'll probably just buy a motherboard/cpu combo and get the suggested memory for that board at the same time. Prices on that go from very cheap to hundreds depending on what it is.

I've been an AMD guy for years now but today I presently don't know if I'd stick with AMD or look into the newer Intel cpu's. Some of those combos are very costly. I'd have to research my options as to what's good, better, best vs cost.