hard disk backup solutions

BillyGoat · Post by **BillyGoat** » Fri Jan 07, 2005 6:56 pm

This is kinda a shootoff of my last thread

Our server is running a raid 5 array, currently we have exceeded our dds3 tape backup solution
reading up on how reliable tapes are, I just thought to myself, how about just building anouther box
and ghost the server to its hd's 4 times a week

Thought
spend about a grand or so
build anouther box 2 2 200 gig ide drives
aternate the backup on to hd 1 mon hd2 tues, etc.....
How fesable is this- what software?
Currently using Veritas Backup for the dds3 setup

Thanks for the advice, Im freaking out that we are not getting backed up

Post by **FlyingPenguin** » Fri Jan 07, 2005 8:43 pm

That's okay as a secondary backup but not a primary. That won't give you anything but a 24 hour old backup. Your array blows up and your last backup failed you're screwed.

Also this does nothing for you if you get robbed or there's a fire.

Here's what I tell my customers:

You want a DVD-RW or Tape drive backup that works off a backup program (so you get 2:1 data compression) and runs on a schedule (because people forget to run backups).

At the very least you want to make one backup a day every day the office is open. I have them label the tapes Monday through Friday (or whatever) and rotate through them.

Even better is a 2 week backup rotation (2 sets tapes Week 1 & Week 2 and rotate) but that too complicated for most people to handle.

I prefer to use DVD-RW drives for backups for small businesses (I use "Backup MyPC" backup software) and every Friday instead of using a DVD-RW disc I tell them to pop in a DVD-R and archive it after writing the date on it. So in addition to one week's worth of daily backups, they have a backup archived for each week. I can't tell you how often I've had someone with a corrupt database and we needed to go back a month to before the corruption to rebuild the database.

In addition to all that I also like to have the most critical data files copies from the server to the drive on one of the workstations hard drives and make sure they know to leave that workstation running 24/7. That's just my insurance incase the idiots don't realize the backup's failed or just forget to tell me and let it slide for a month (happens all the time). It's been a life saver a few times. I just use a batch file and let Window's Schedule Tasks run it once a week.

Some clients I have are so paranoid (they've been burned once already) that they do daily tape backups AND daily CD-R or DVD-R backups.

You can never have enough backups. When the shit hits the fan it'll pay off.

One client runs a nearly paperless office and can't afford to lose his file server so he does daily tape backups (seperate computer so it's not hardware dependent on the server) and also copies all data files to a backup server every night for insurance.

Worse comes to worse, he can switch to the backup server easily until we get the main server working.

I CANNOT stress enough how important it is to put you backup media (tapes, re-writable discs, whatever) in a fire safe when they're not in the drive. A cheap fire safe costs $25 at Walmart. I have my clients keep any backup media not in use, and any CDs they need for a clean install (OS, drivers, whatever apps they use) in the fire safe. Having a backup of your data doesn't do you any good if the only copy of your application software burned in the fire.

Also I always tell my clients to make sure someone ALWAYS takes the previous day's backup home with them EVERY NIGHT so there's always a backup (even if it's 24 hours old) OFF SITE every evening. Place gets robbed, or washed out in a flood, having your backups in the office doesn't do you any good.

The reason I like to use DVD-R's for backups instead of tapes lately is that if the tape drive is destroyed or lost, the backup doesn't do you much good until you can find a replacement drive as well. Around here there's no CompUSAs - anything like a $600 tape backup drive needs to be mail ordered - you don't find those at Office Depot. These are usually specialty items and are generally on back order even at CDW.com so you might be down a week or more waiting for your replacement drive to arrive.

CD-Rom and DVD-Rom drives are a dime a dozen. If my client's backup is on CD or a DVD it's no sweat to restore it. I can have them up and running on a loaner computer in no time if necessary.

I recommend that clients who use tape drives buy a spare drive, and keep it somewhere safe off-site or in a secure fire-proof vault on-site.

ZYFER · Post by **ZYFER** » Fri Jan 07, 2005 11:47 pm

also never forget to test your backups. I knew someone who was "acting" as net admin for his wife's small business. He made regular backups everyday but never tested them. Now to get to the point, their server crashed and they needed to restore from backup, but found out that their tape drive was making proper backups. So basically, they lost everything because he simply forgot to test the backups made.

I do things differently for my company, our data is very important, it can't just get lost, and even losing a single day's worth is impossible. What we do is have a mirrored server which backs up the primary's data, then on regularly scheduled times, backups are made, both to tape and DVD-RW since we can't risk a failed device to waste anytime restoring a backup.

Naturally, coporate is different then personal use, I suggest for personal use just use DVD-RWs, and to make two backups of it just incase the media is ruined one way or another

canton_kid · Post by **canton_kid** » Sat Jan 08, 2005 4:34 am

Great advice, now I have it in print (online) to show the wife why I need to buy my new toy, er huh, fire safe I been wanting for a long time!!

I mentioned the car titles alot, I have over 30 cars now and alot of them I never transfered yet so getting new titles would be a problem right there. And I always make copies of everything and never carry the original cd's for anything. But like FP says, won't do any good if the house burns down, the disks go with it! Also security keys!

I like the idea of DVD backups, and the disks are plenty cheap even for high quality ones. Less than $0.60 each by 100 pack.
And decent burners at $70 is good too. If the bugs get out and the price comes down, Daul layer dvds would be nice, but I wouldn't trust them for now and the cost is too high for them still.

Thanks for all the advice posted, gave me something else to think about here.
I about freaked out for awhile when a WD drive kept getting noisy, locking up the system, ect...
I been keeping ghost images on a differnt drive but chewing my nails everytime that happened anyway. Luckily it always fixed with WD tools, and the last time seemed to fix it right I guess because it hasn't happened recently and it's been awhile. I was thinking about a tape drive, but didn't want one really.

I'll look for DVD back up software mentioned.

Question,
My system is the only one with a DVD burner (has a couple), I suppose I can use the backups through the network both creating and restoring them?? As for restoreing though I thank all the systems have a DVD rom drive, just not burner.

ZYFER · Post by **ZYFER** » Sat Jan 08, 2005 6:21 am

As long as the systems are capable of reading the discs, its not a problem at all. To ensure compatiability use DVD-Rs or DVD-RWs as most standard DVD-Rom drives will not read DVD+R or DVD+RW.

Since you do not have burners on them, you would have to do backups over the network, most good backup software will let you do this and burn straight to DVD, put on tape etc., Windows's built-in backup solution will not

Post by **FlyingPenguin** » Sat Jan 08, 2005 7:29 am

I use Stomp's BackupMyPC v5.0 (do not confuse it with a similar product made by Sonic). It's essentially Veritas Backup. Stomp bought the rights to it.

http://www.stompsoft.com/backupmypc.html

It supports tape, CD-R and DVD-R as well as removable and external hard drives. Even works with USB Pen Drives.

It doesn't run on a server OS but that's not a problem - most of my smaller clients usually aren't running a server OS on their file sharing box, or else I just setup the backup on a workstation and backup the server data files over the network.

There IS an backup app that supports CD & DVD that does run on a server OS called BackupNow! by NTI. Even though it doesn't list server OSes in system requirements specs, I know from experience it runs under NT, 2K and 2003 server. http://www.ntius.com/default.asp?p=backupnow/bun_main

However I prefer Stomp's BackupMYPC. Eaier to use, more reliable.

I much prefer DVD over tape for small businesses. With data compression you can get up to 9Gb on a DVD backup, which is more than adequate for most small businesses. And yes, when dual layer becomes more affordable it'll mean nearly 18Gb which is as good as tape.

Another benefit is speed. Even expensive high-end tape drives are friggin' slow ESPECIALLY with data verification enabled.

I always use data verification and I write a batch file to have the tape backup's backup report printed every morning and I tell my client to check the report and make sure the date is correct and that there are no errors, and to notify me immediately if there's a problem.

To ensure compatiability use DVD-Rs or DVD-RWs as most standard DVD-Rom drives will not read DVD+R or DVD+RW.

I would disagree. DVD+ is the emerging standard for data, and is fully compatible with most DVD-Rom players. It's getting hard to find DVD-RW drives. Most are either + or +/-.

Frankly any drive made in the last few years should read either format, and a replacement DVD-Rom drive is $30 at the Walmart if you don't have one installed on your backup system.

ZYFER · Post by **ZYFER** » Sat Jan 08, 2005 2:18 pm

Originally posted by FlyingPenguin

I would disagree. DVD+ is the emerging standard for data, and is fully compatible with most DVD-Rom players. It's getting hard to find DVD-RW drives. Most are either + or +/-.

Frankly any drive made in the last few years should read either format, and a replacement DVD-Rom drive is $30 at the Walmart if you don't have one installed on your backup system.

DVD+R was not the original standard, many DVD-Roms do not support it, I mean he can still check to see if they will work on his, but usually its about 9 out of 10 DVD-Roms out there that will not work with DVD+Rs, believe me, I have seen this on brand new ones. If you also look, it is getting hard to find DVD+RW drives as well, since why get one of those when you can get both in one? thats why you won't see many DVD-RW drives either.

canton_kid · Post by **canton_kid** » Mon Jan 10, 2005 2:24 am

Frankly any drive made in the last few years should read either format, and a replacement DVD-Rom drive is $30 at the Walmart if you don't have one installed on your backup system.

I agree with that, some of the really old first DVD-rom drives may not read a + disk but anything in recent years should. At $30 for a DVD-rom drive it's getting back to the old question why bother, for about $70 (or less) you can get a 16X +/- DVD dual layer burner. KInda like the old question should I get a CD-rom drive or CD burner. I Kinda consider the DVD-rom dirves to be only if needed fast, like from wal-mart, type items.

Thanks for the link, I'll checkout Stomp's BackupMyPC v5.0.

Even expensive high-end tape drives are friggin' slow ESPECIALLY with data verification enabled.

That's one of the things that caused me to get out of doing backups, at least the normal tape way. I remember still how slow those old 480MB tape backups went and that was less than half a gig! I think I stopped doing tapes when my drives hit about 3 gig of data. Probably about 8-10 tapes

I had friends with some larger tape drives that were expensiive ones back then, and I think it took them about as long they just used less tapes because they held alot more data. Didn't know if the tape speeds ever got decent or not, kinda figured still really slow!

I shouldn't need to run off any server OS so that shouldn't be a problem.