And so it goes...

TheSovereign · Post by **TheSovereign** » Sun Mar 23, 2003 1:19 pm

blade is right
its ok for u but not him
talk about the pot calling the kettle eh
hypocrites are really destroying the world

Red Dawn · Post by **Red Dawn** » Sun Mar 23, 2003 1:30 pm

Originally posted by blade
What, you intentionally insult our president and I do a similar play on your name and there's a problem? I get offended when anyone insults our president. I'm rather dissapointed that you did that to get a response.

By calling him Dubya? Hell that's what his own circle of friends call him.
Anyway, I guess some are hyper sensitive and intolerent about others not sharing the same opinions and maybe I should just expect to be called "Pink" by them and just roll with it

I do find it strange that I would be derided as I support the military actions taking place.

Post by **sbp** » Sun Mar 23, 2003 1:42 pm

Originally posted by Red Dawn
I'm for this military action but I also agree that voicing your opinion against the war if you believe it is wrong is as patriotic as voicing your opinion for it if you believe it is right. As long as we support our troops then speaking one mind about this situation one way or another if very American. I also am not impressed with Dubya as I think his diplomatic skills leave a lot to be desired. Frankly I believe that he failed us by alienating our allies to the point where they were more afraid of us than they were of Hussien.

You ever wonder why Clinton was able to send troops into Bosnia,Haiti and Kosovo without approval from the UN and was able to get out allies to support us?

At least Dubya is making up for the cowardly actions of his father when he abandoned the brave people of Iraq after American Support for them uprising against Hussien never was delivered as promised which resulted in the brutal suppresion of thousands of Shia and Kurds!

Don't anyone think the splits were't there before. They were just less noticable.

Allies? Thats a joke. Once again the US and UK have to do the heavy lifting. Its ok for these 2 countries to put the lives of its sons and daughters on the line once again, but other countries are too good to do so.

France has been a friend in name only for a long time. Lets see...6 months engaging in diplomacy and France undermined it all. We could have bent over backwards for the French and the wankers still wouldn't have supported action against Hussein. And heck the French are doing stuff just to throw fuel on the fire, so who is the one being unfriendly here?

These European countries have had their panties in a bunch ever since Bush was elected. Like I told someone on another forum: Tough, you don't get to decide who the US leader is. And of course they liked Clinton since more in line with their socialistic bullsh1t. Add to that there is an undercurrent of anti-Americanism and there ya go.

Clinton liked to talk which suited those who don't want to do anything. In others words he could bs. But bsing doesn't take care of business. In comparison I don't want someone to make me feel good. I want them to take care of the nations concerns which Bush is doing.

As for these protestors: their way was tried for over 12 years and resulted in jack. "Thanks a lot useful idiots," laughed Saddam Hussein.

Geez what about the cowardly actions of other countries? If the US doesn't do something it gets bashed, if the US does do something it gets bashed. The only constant thing is lame bashing. And its clearly apparent that peeps hate the US for being successful and helping out others.

Red Dawn · Post by **Red Dawn** » Sun Mar 23, 2003 1:49 pm

Originally posted by sbp
Don't anyone think the splits were't there before. They were just less noticable.

Allies? Thats a joke. Once again the US and UK have to do the heavy lifting. Its ok for these 2 countries to put the lives of its sons and daughters on the line once again, but other countries are too good to do so.

France has been a friend in name only for a long time. Lets see...6 months engaging in diplomacy and France undermined it all. We could have bent over backwards for the French and the wankers still wouldn't have supported action against Hussein. And heck the French are doing stuff just to throw fuel on the fire, so who is the one being unfriendly here?

These European countries have had their panties in a bunch ever since Bush was elected. Like I told someone on another forum: Tough, you don't get to decide who the US leader is. And of course they liked Clinton since more in line with their socialistic bullsh1t. Add to that there is an undercurrent of anti-Americanism and there ya go.

Clinton liked to talk which suited those who don't want to do anything. In others words he could bs. But bsing doesn't take care of business. In comparison I don't want someone to make me feel good. I want them to take care of the nations concerns which Bush is doing.

As for these protestors: their way was tried for over 12 years and resulted in jack. "Thanks a lot useful idiots," laughed Saddam Hussein.

Geez what about the cowardly actions of other countries? If the US doesn't do something it gets bashed, if the US does do something it gets bashed. The only constant thing is lame bashing. And its clearly apparent that peeps hate the US for being successful and helping out others.

Well I must say that G.W. Bush has shown more Courage than his Father, George H.W. Bush, regarding going against world opinion

Post by **FlyingPenguin** » Sun Mar 23, 2003 4:14 pm

I'm a little sick of people being branded traitors because they want to express their 1st Amendment right to critique our leadership.

Ruthlessly silencing critics of the government is called "oppression".

And last I checked, one of the main reasons we're in Iraq is to free Iraqis from oppression.

Just for the record, because I know I'll be misunderstood anyway:

- I believe this war is necessary and unavoidable. Saddam's party has to be removed from power even if it creates a power vaccum. The weapons inspection process was a joke.

- Iraq, however, isn't half the threat that North Korea is right now, and someone in the White House failed to see that coming (or just conveniently ignored it).

- It would have been MUCH preferable if we had gone to war with a broader coalition than we wound up with. As it is, we now look (to the Muslim world) as an invading force. We as Americans can't begin to understand what a threat such a force appears to the Muslim world. This will come back to haunt us later.

- I truly believe Powell tried very hard to achieve a broad coalition. He's lived in Saudi Arabia, and understands the arab mind better than most people on the President's staff.

- I believe the president didn't try hard enough to establish a broad coalition. Frankly I don't think he cared.

- The President's father was a TRUE statesman IMO accomplishing the organization of an unprecedented broad coalition consisting of Muslim and Western military fighting side by side - an accomplishment that in years to come will likely be George Bush Sr's greatest historical legacy.

- His son pretty much just destroyed most of the good will his father fostered for this country with the Muslim world. I believe this president cares more about paying back the personal debts he owes to the very powerful people who put him in office (read this as BIG OIL).

Anybody can start a war - takes no skillz for that. Selling a war to the world and the American public is harder. George Bush Sr. accomplished just that and quite elegantly. The fact that there's 120,000 people marching in New York means this president didn't sell this war properly to the country.

It's easy for you to dismiss these protests, but that many people don't just get together because they want to have a party. These poeple have a legitimate concern about the war. Branding them as "un-American" or "un-patriotic" accomplishes nothing.

- I stand by my previous statement: George W. Bush is NOT HALF the Statesman his father was.

I also think it's time for everyone to dust off their old high school copies of "The Ugly American". Might come in handy.

blade · Post by **blade** » Sun Mar 23, 2003 4:22 pm

I'm a little sick of people being branded traitors because they want to express their 1st Amendment right to critique our leadership.

Now where did anyone ever use the word "traitor"? :;

I'm plain sick of some who like to make more out nothing and turn things around. You were one speaking of free speech and voicing ones opinions freely, well that's exactly what I was doing. Never did I ever say or remotely suggest you or anyone here was a "traitor" for calling Bush various names.

Did I say you had to stop it or else I'll tell yo momma? Chill dude.

Ruthlessly silencing critics of the government is called "oppression".

Saw what!!! Now what the fark are you talking about. My gawd man, disagree with a few issues then you go whacko. "Ruthlessly" "oppression". HUH? Just because some of us don't like how some use names, you use those words? :; sheeeesh.

Last I remembered, we are no government here. It's just a forum.

hmm, Gov'ner blade. hehe

TheSovereign · Post by **TheSovereign** » Sun Mar 23, 2003 4:38 pm

hey FP i want u to lookup how many american oil companies exist

i think you will be unpleasantly surprised at how many their are

BIG OIL HA!

blade · Post by **blade** » Sun Mar 23, 2003 4:45 pm

And so basically you are saying it's ok for you to criticize and disagree, but others like me cannot.

I'm not arguing some of your points about Bush. I do agree with many actually.

It's easy for you to dismiss these protests, but that many people don't just get together because they want to have a party. These poeple have a legitimate concern about the war. Branding them as "un-American" or "un-patriotic" accomplishes nothing.

Now there I will disagree.

I think most of them are just wanting to be known as "peace lovin'" and have no clue about all the real facts. As far as our disagreeing "accomplishes nothing", exactly why should it? We just, disagree.. period. It isn't meant to accomplish anything other than *oh gasp* voice our opinion.

Post by **FlyingPenguin** » Sun Mar 23, 2003 4:49 pm

Now where did anyone ever use the word "traitor"?

Sorry if I didn't make myself clear. Didn't mean to imply you were specifically trying to silence anyone Blade. Talking outta my ass again.

I was directing that comment in general to the politicians and media that are branding protestors as traitors.

And yes, there's been implications in some posts on this forum that protestors are traitors and/or idiots.

As for the ruthless silencing part, many posts on this board (not necessarily this thread) have had remarks about silencing (killing, not much minding if someone injured) protestors. Hard to know how serious some of you are.

For instance I found it rather gruesome how everyone had a good laugh about the American woman who got killed by a bulldozer in Gaza last week. Did she express poor judgement? Yes. It's still tragic. All she was doing was peacefully protesting. If it happened in the midwest instead of the Middle East there would be rioting in the streets.

We've all made jokes on this forum about people who've contributed to the gene pool by killing themselves stupidly - myself included. You have to laugh sometimes. But there's a fine line between humor and lack of compassion.

I don't see any intelligent discussion as to WHY people are protesting. Just a quick dismissal that they're all cranks.

There are bankers, lawyers, politicians, and other professionals marching in the streets. These people are not all cranks. Some of these people have serious concerns - about ethics, about their loved ones going to war, about possible political instabilities caused in the middle east because a large Western
army is invading a Muslim nation, about how the financial debt of this war will affect our economy.

These are all valid concerns.

SOVEREIGN: So you're telling me all the American oil wells are owned by foreign companies? I don't think so Dude.

I keep forgetting, you're one of those who think that oil has nothing to do with this war.

The US wants "stability in the Middle East" which means "we want an uninterupted flow of oil".

Do you seriously think we fought Gulf War 1 to liberate our friends the Kuwati's because we care so much about a bunch of rich Arabs?

blade · Post by **blade** » Sun Mar 23, 2003 5:01 pm

I don't see any intelligent discussion as to WHY people are protesting. Just a quick dismissal that they're all cranks.

Well, may I politely suggest you start one.

I agree those are all valid concerns. I believe the main reason is this administration hasn't done a good enough job to convey the reasons why we need to remove that regime. And as far as NK, I can't argue that point either.

And frankly, I believe many of those protestors are traitors. The ones burning an American flag, defending iraq, etc..

Post by **sbp** » Sun Mar 23, 2003 6:20 pm

Originally posted by FlyingPenguin
I'm a little sick of people being branded traitors because they want to express their 1st Amendment right to critique our leadership.

Peeps can critique our leadership. But when they don't come up with valid criticism's or act stupid, people tune out.

Furthermore we can use the 1st amendment to critique the critiquers. Or should it be all give and not take as far as the protestors are concerned?

Ruthlessly silencing critics of the government is called "oppression".

What part of peaceful protest is not understood?

Exactly who is imposing themselves here? Having vomit-in's, blocking traffic and being disruptive is not peaceful protest.

Looks like some think the protestors should do whatever they want no matter how it hurts others. Forget that.

I believe this war is necessary and unavoidable. Saddam's party has to be removed from power even if it creates a power vaccum. The weapons inspection process was a joke.

Well geez according to the French it was working so well.

It never should have came to this. Hussein should have been taken out years ago as soon as the ceasefire was violate.

Iraq, however, isn't half the threat that North Korea is right now, and someone in the White House failed to see that coming (or just conveniently ignored it).

North Korea didn't just developed its nukes overnight and this Iraq situation didn't just began on this term.

Not much can be done about the North Koreans now since they got nukes. All the appeasement policies of the last administration and company did was just kicked the can down the road. Now another has to deal with the mess.

It would have been MUCH preferable if we had gone to war with a broader coalition than we wound up with. As it is, we now look (to the Muslim world) as an invading force. We as Americans can't begin to understand what a threat such a force appears to the Muslim world. This will come back to haunt us later.

Read the typing: never was going to happen.

What about the threat the Muslim world is to everyone else?

There is something wrong when a murdering fanatic is thought as a hero by a good portion of the Muslim population.

Frankly I'm tired of hearing what Muslims want. What about the rest of us? Don't we have a say?

I truly believe Powell tried very hard to achieve a broad coalition. He's lived in Saudi Arabia, and understands the arab mind better than most people on the President's staff.

Powell went from a dove to hawk on Iraq. You know why? Cause the French sandbagged him.

I believe the president didn't try hard enough to establish a broad coalition. Frankly I don't think he cared.

The French, Germans and others would not have gone along no matter what. This is yet another example of people not listening but wanting to live in lala land.

Yeah its not like France wasn't running around the world killing the second resolution dead.

The President's father was a TRUE statesman IMO accomplishing the organization of an unprecedented broad coalition consisting of Muslim and Western military fighting side by side - an accomplishment that in years to come will likely be George Bush Sr's greatest historical legacy.

Yet in this instance some countries have failed to lived up to their responsiblities. So once again the US is basically left alone to deal with a rotten regime. Thats nice for those hiding behind us.

His son pretty much just destroyed most of the good will his father fostered for this country with the Muslim world. I believe this president cares more about paying back the personal debts he owes to the very powerful people who put him in office (read this as BIG OIL).

The Muslim world need to clean up their act and realize it shares the world with non-Muslims. Its easier to scapegoat and blame others than deal with one's own rotten government and backward {yes backward} culture.

wtf did they do to get rid of Hussein? Nothing. Now here comes the non-Muslim world to deal with one of their own.

It takes time to change. It doesn't happen over night. The rest of the world can help the Muslim World, but they must do a lot more themselves. Trying to take the world back to the 13th century or living in stagnation isn't the answer.

Anybody can start a war - takes no skillz for that. Selling a war to the world and the American public is harder. George Bush Sr. accomplished just that and quite elegantly. The fact that there's 120,000 people marching in New York means this president didn't sell this war properly to the country.

Or it could be these protestors out there don't listen and protest anything.

The majority of Americans want Iraq to be disarmed. Yet the small minority don't. Therefore we should do what the small minority says.

It's easy for you to dismiss these protests, but that many people don't just get together because they want to have a party. These poeple have a legitimate concern about the war. Branding them as "un-American" or "un-patriotic" accomplishes nothing.

We are supposed to consider their ill-founded points when they don't bother considering others.

And yes, some of these protestors are anti-American. I heard there was cheering in LA over our guys being captured and whatnot.

hame

I stand by my previous statement: George W. Bush is NOT HALF the Statesman his father was.

Fine, this generation has had 2 presidents have sucked. Happy?

I also think it's time for everyone to dust off their old high school copies of "The Ugly American". Might come in handy.

Here's a copy of "Its ok to be American and not feel guilty about it".

I don't want to listen to these foreigners lecture that the US is bad and got to do this or that. How dare they do so when they don't even stand by us!

And yes, there's been implications in some posts on this forum that protestors are traitors and/or idiots.

Thats cause some of them are. Doh!

http://www.pcabusers.net/forums/showthr ... adid=25772

For instance I found it rather gruesome how everyone had a good laugh about the American woman who got killed by a bulldozer in Gaza last week. Did she express poor judgement? Yes. It's still tragic. All she was doing was peacefully protesting. If it happened in the midwest instead of the Middle East there would be rioting in the streets.

We've all made jokes on this forum about people who've contributed to the gene pool by killing themselves stupidly - myself included. You have to laugh sometimes. But there's a fine line between humor and lack of sympathy.

How about using responsiblity and common sense for once?

Standing in front of a bulldozer is stupidity in action.

I don't see any intelligent discussion as to WHY people are protesting. Just a quick dismissal that they're all cranks.

Thats cause the protestors have come with no real solutions and shout the same tired slogans.

Protesting this, protesting that-how about taking that energy and doing something concrete for once.

How about spewing some of this self-righteous bs at Iran or North Korea for once?

There are bankers, lawyers, politicians, and other professionals marching in the streets. These people are not all cranks. Some of these people have serious concerns - about ethics, about their loved ones going to war, about possible political instabilities caused in the middle east because a large Western army is invading a Muslim nation, about how the financial debt of this war will affect our economy.

The protestors have done a poor job of coming up with solutions. Many have allowed their dislike for this president to obscure what needs to be done.

With jerks like Saddam war IS required to force him from power but good luck on convincing the protestors.

nexus_7 · Post by **nexus_7** » Sun Mar 23, 2003 7:19 pm

wow, im gladd I was out all day.

Greg

marscheese · Post by **marscheese** » Sun Mar 23, 2003 7:37 pm

Originally posted by FlyingPenguin
- Iraq, however, isn't half the threat that North Korea is right now, and someone in the White House failed to see that coming (or just conveniently ignored it).

Talking to a number of people whom I believe are knowledgeable about the subject, it seems that the US doesn't feel as threated by North Korea because it looks just more to be "flexing it's muscles" using some of their termonology. ALSO, and more importantly, it is of their opinion (which I am now in agreement with) that major players like China and Japan are putting a lot of pressure down on North Korea, so we don't feel so threatened by them because we feel that they are already being delt with (to a point). Now if something does happen, obviously the US is going to have to do something about it, but until then, it's not our number one priority.

Anybody can start a war - takes no skillz for that. Selling a war to the world and the American public is harder. George Bush Sr. accomplished just that and quite elegantly. The fact that there's 120,000 people marching in New York means this president didn't sell this war properly to the country.

was listening to NPR today, and some guy (don't remember his name), said that at least one of the reasons why this protest was so big was because 5 previous protests had been turned down, so this one sort of made up for all that.

one more thing that I haven't heard...both my Uncle and my sister are quite against the war. But what I have yet to hear is an alternative. November 8th 2002 4041 was passed saying that Iraq had to IMMIDIATLY DISARM ALL WEAPONS THAT VIOLATED UN SANCTIONS...FOUR months pass, and they're not disarmed. Now, after that much time, they aren't going to disarm. We needed to take action, we did...and I'm very greatful. I say f*ck the UN with their pacifist leaders, if something like this comes up, make a date, stick with it. Some countries were wanting 3 weeks more...god damn, we can't have that. We need leaders who will take a stance, not listen to the corrupt, selfish ramblings of other nations.

As far as Bush's poor dipolacy...I say screw that. God damn greedy countries...we'd have to BRIBE them!!! This is not joke. Border control too strict--we have no Mexico...no free trade agreement--we have not chilie...what the hell is that? If there's a just cause that needs to be delt with, DEAL WITH IT! Countries should not have to have any incentives to fight a just cause. If they don't cooperate, we should have someone with the balls who will take action--that's what Bush did. And everyone should be damned greatful, and don't bash on the man unless you can offer some reasonable alternative.

PreDatoR · Post by **PreDatoR** » Sun Mar 23, 2003 9:04 pm

ITA Mars....