Soldier responds to Michael Moore's Movie

[rogue]

Army Specialist Joe Roche writes about Michael Moore's "documentary" and the impact it is having on the troops:

Michael Moore's film, Fahrenheit 9/11, is making the rounds here at U.S. bases in Kuwait. Some soldiers have received it already and are passing is around. The impact is devastating.

Here we are, soldiers of the 1st Armored Division, just days from finally returning home after over a year serving in Iraq, and Moore's film is shocking and crushing soldiers, making them feel ashamed. Moore has abused the First Amendment and is hurting us worse than the enemy has.

There are the young and impressionable soldiers, like those who joined the Army right out of high school. They aren't familiar w/ the college-type political debate environment, and they haven't been schooled in the full range of issues involved. They are vulnerable to being hurt by a vicious film like Moore's.

There are others who joined for reasons of money and other benefits, and never gave full thought to the issues. For them, seeing this film has jolted them grievously because they never even knew where some of these countries were that we have been serving in. Imagine the impact this film has on them.

And there are those who are hurting from being away from family and loved ones. They are burnt out, already hurting inside from 15 months of duty out here, and now to be hit w/ this film.. it is devastating.

Lastly, there are those like me, who want to explode in anger and rage at this abuse of the First Amendment and the way Moore has twisted reality so harshly.

Specialist Janecek, who is feeling depressed because a close family member is nearing the end of her life, just saw the film today. I saw him in the DFAC. He is devastated. "I feel shitty, ashamed, like this was all a lie." Not only is he looking at going straight to a funeral when he returns home, but now whatever pride he felt for serving here has been crushed by Moore's film. Specialist Everett earlier after seeing the film: "You'll be mad at shit for ever having come here."

And there are others. Mostly the comments are absolute shock at the close connections Moore makes between the Bush family and the Bin Laden family in Saudi Arabia. "Bush looks really really REALLY corrupt in this film. I just don't know what to think anymore," is a common comment to hear. Some of these soldiers are darn right ashamed tonight to be American soldiers, to have been apart of this whole mission in Iraq, and are angry over all that Moore has presented in his film.

We know this is all based on Moore's lies and deceptions. But we, I'm afraid, are a minority. Right now, just days away from what should be a proud and happy return from 15 months of duty in Operation Iraqi Freedom, your U.S. soldiers are coming back ashamed and hurt because of Moore's work.

What these good yet impressionable soldiers don't realize is that twisting reality and manipulating the truth is something lawyers do every day in court for their clients. OJ Simpson, so clearly guilty in the ghastly murders, was able to get off because his lawyer team completely confused the issue. Now today, in typical fashion, Moore is doing the very same thing in this film. This is, frankly, the nature of political debate in a democracy -- especially when extremism is allowed to go unchecked.

Lt. Bischoff is so angry he could explode. He knows Moore's work is based on lies and distortions, but as he says, "the damage is done." Clearly, this is the type of thing we expect from angry leftists like Moore. What we didn't expect was the full impact this film is now having and how it has been embraced and supported by so many Hollywood elites. Lt. Bischoff says Moore's film is a work of deception, lies and distortions that when seen by those unfamiliar w/ the issues involved, has the effect of attacking the American peoples' resolve and focus in this war.

From what I've heard from the soldiers, the things that have them most shocked and upset them are the connections Moore makes between the Bush family and the Bin Ladens. The impression is that Bush is part of a conspiracy that supported the September 11th terrorist attacks. They speak of how Moore makes a convincing case all the way from the 2000 election to now that Bush and Cheney are all about making money. That the September 11th attacks were merely calculated by them as to how they would earn them more money. They speak of the Saudi who was a fellow soldier w/ Bush in the National Guard, and how Moore makes it all look like Bush is more beholden to Saudi interests than US interests.

Moore's commentary and striking video stunts, such as confronting politicians w/ enlistment papers for their kids, of course hurts and affects these soldiers out here badly. These are the ones who have sacrificed much to serve. Moore's stunt is powerful.

I sometimes want to be mad at my fellow soldiers for being susceptible to Moore's distortions, but I can't really blame them. These are good Americans, who have volunteered to serve our country. Nothing says they all have to be experts in Middle Eastern issues and history and politics to serve. That would be silly. ...But this is, of course, the vulnerability that Moore has exploited.

I wonder how damaging and shocking a Moore project would have been in the 1940s making such a video of Franklin Roosevelt. All the corruption and decadence in that administration would have fed such a project well. Or how damaging and shocking would such a Moore project have been to Lincoln, who wavered and shifted often in finding the right mediums and balances in pursuing the great causes of the Civil War. ...Need I even suggest the impact such would have had on Kennedy or Johnson and all their hypocrisies?

Moore is hurting us, hurting America, and today I can tell you he is hurting your soldiers. I don't know what to ask, except that good people out there find ways to organize information so that we can better counter Moore's impact. Is there anyone in Hollywood who is willing to stand up and make a similar film to counter Moore's? I know good people w/ integrity in the film industry don't want to be seen as pushing a political agenda in movies. But this is EXACTLY what Moore and the radical leftists in Hollywood have done. Is there no way to put together a response to them?

I hope more people will arm themselves w/ the facts and the realities of the situation out here and in the world at large. Our political arena is taking a big hit from this film by Moore, and it should tell us all something when terrorist groups like Hezbollah are distributing it around to their own people.

I think it is sad and unfortunate that at this last hour of a long and difficult deployment, so many soldiers are being made to feel ashamed and "shitty" for having ever served in this whole mission. Moore has abused the First Amendment. This is his right, and we soldiers have defended that right, but we who know better should NOT just sit back and let such enemies w/in our own country get by w/ such assaults unanswered.

More on the counter punch to Moore's propaganda can be found here, here, here, here,and here for starters.

Other comments from a soldier in Iraq can be read here.

I leave you with a quote from the man himself:

The Iraqis who have risen up against the occupation are not "insurgents" or "terrorists" or "The Enemy." They are the REVOLUTION, the Minutemen, and their numbers will grow -- and they will win. Get it, Mr. Bush? - Michael Moore

Moore's movie has now made over $ 100 million, maybe he can now afford to buy some class.

Source: http://www.perryonpolitics.com/archives/001930.html

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Translation of letter: "We had all these perfectly young, empty, impressionable heads... and now this movie has gone and ruined all that by alerting them to the idea that there might be another side and other truths which run contrary to our bullshit we had been spoon-feeding them."

Yeah, I'd be pissed too. The nerve of this film to actually present a different point of view!

Quote: "There are the young and impressionable soldiers, like those who joined the Army right out of high school. They aren't familiar w/ the college-type political debate environment, and they haven't been schooled in the full range of issues involved. They are vulnerable to being hurt by a vicious film like Moore's."

More like, "they were perfectly vulnerable to eating up whatever bullshit we wanted to feed them until this came along and ruined it. Now they're actually THINKING, dammit! That's the last thing we wanted!"


Oh and this one is great... said more than once too:

"Moore has abused the First Amendment and is hurting us worse than the enemy has."

I don't quite know how it's possible to "abuse the first amendment." I imagine that only a person who does not truly understand and/or genuinely appreciate this freedom could say such a thing.

[Karchiveur]

If theres one film i want to see its this one, it hits the local theater nearing the end of this month...
Bah ya...
if only the army would show all these guys both sides of view before they went to war. how many ya think would actually sign up? no nearly as many.. thus, its damn near brainwash (too strong of a word i know) what the army/gov' is doing to there soldiers. HAH! good too see peeps 2nd guessing about going to war... because most are only hearing on side of it all!

[blade]

Geezus, you'll never get it will you. Why don't you move to Iwreck?

Lt. Bischoff is so angry he could explode. He knows Moore's work is based on lies and distortions, but as he says, "the damage is done." Clearly, this is the type of thing we expect from angry leftists like Moore. What we didn't expect was the full impact this film is now having and how it has been embraced and supported by so many Hollywood elites. Lt. Bischoff says Moore's film is a work of deception, lies and distortions that when seen by those unfamiliar w/ the issues involved, has the effect of attacking the American peoples' resolve and focus in this war.

Moore deserves what he'd get in the middle east for making total bs like this, a public beheading. Look how he's hurt our soldiers, probably causing the deaths of some by making them 'hesitate'.

Moore is hurting us, hurting America, and today I can tell you he is hurting your soldiers. I don't know what to ask, except that good people out there find ways to organize information so that we can better counter Moore's impact. Is there anyone in Hollywood who is willing to stand up and make a similar film to counter Moore's? I know good people w/ integrity in the film industry don't want to be seen as pushing a political agenda in movies. But this is EXACTLY what Moore and the radical leftists in Hollywood have done. Is there no way to put together a response to them?

Bruce Willis has been trying. The problem is most of the others are too skeered that backing a war may hurt their career. They want to be known as 'peace lovin''.

Moore's movie has now made over $ 100 million, maybe he can now afford to buy some class.

No amount of money can buy what is impossible for him to ever get.

[dadx2mj]

If either one of you two had two brain cells to rub together I would be worried. Obviously you dont and therefore I am not worried. That Soldier obviously sees Moore for what he is and some how you manage to twist it into something else.

[PreDatoR]

[MK888]

if only the army would show all these guys both sides of view before they went to war. how many ya think would actually sign up? no nearly as many.. thus, its damn near brainwash (too strong of a word i know) what the army/gov' is doing to there soldiers. HAH! good too see peeps 2nd guessing about going to war... because most are only hearing on side of it all!

Where would we be if people did not sign up for the military? If the soldiers questioned everything that was told to them, we would have no military at all. Keeping soliders in the dark about parts of a situation is done for a lot of reasons. One of the main reasons is moral. How effective is a fighting force of soldiers that is not sure what they are doing is the right thing?

[Karchiveur]

Originally posted by MK888
Where would we be if people did not sign up for the military? If the soldiers questioned everything that was told to them, we would have no military at all. Keeping soliders in the dark about parts of a situation is done for a lot of reasons. One of the main reasons is moral. How effective is a fighting force of soldiers that is not sure what they are doing is the right thing?

cratch
But you can accept the fact that what you might die for is a lie, if you were a soldier?
I'm sorry but I couldn't!

[Lmandrake]

Moore is a propagandist. At best, he is selling entertainment.

This is why I get so confused by the outrage over his "lies." He's just a liar on the left. There are lots of liars on the right, but none of them have a track record of making half-truthamentaries that make money. They are dangerous in their own way though, half of them are in Washington working for neo-con "think tanks" and similar organizations. The others have talk shows, newspaper columns, etc. After all, if you have a talent for stringing factoids, myths and legends together in a way that gets you a paying audience, you have a right to earn your living off the gullibility of others, whether they are liberals or conservatives.

Its going to be a hell of an interesting Presidential race. Look at the polarization on this board. The rest of the country is getting to be the same way and with each candidate having in between 40 and 50 percent approval in the polls, its gonna be a catfight.

In this atmosphere, Moore certainly must be hitting a nerve. Its sad, because he is selling a lot of things and the truth ain't one of them.

This outraged soldier essay is proof. I don't doubt that an Army Spec. (depending on his MOS) is articulate enough to write something like this, but it sure seems like a concocted "urban legend" essay to me. After all, he writes about the "corruption and decadence" of ROOSEVELT administration for chrissakes. Holy smokes, this is lifted from the deepest and blackest part of Republican dogma. How many enlisted guys born between 1981 and 1984 know anything more about Franklin Roosevelt other than that he was President once. And then we have the piling on with Johnson and Kennedy.

If any of you dyed in the wool liberal and demorat haters can educate me about the "corruption and decadence" of the Roosevelt administration, I would love to hear it. (Yes, I know FDR cheated on Eleanor).

Embrace this mythical outrage with all your hearts. Some hack is going to sleep well tonight.

[The_Frapster]

Sigh, not really sure what to say...

How about this....

The Truth is out there.

[TruckStuff]

Originally posted by rogue
Translation of letter: "We had all these perfectly young, empty, impressionable heads... and now this movie has gone and ruined all that by alerting them to the idea that there might be another side and other truths which run contrary to our bullshit we had been spoon-feeding them."

Yeah, I'd be pissed too. The nerve of this film to actually present a different point of view!

Quote: "There are the young and impressionable soldiers, like those who joined the Army right out of high school. They aren't familiar w/ the college-type political debate environment, and they haven't been schooled in the full range of issues involved. They are vulnerable to being hurt by a vicious film like Moore's."

More like, "they were perfectly vulnerable to eating up whatever bullshit we wanted to feed them until this came along and ruined it. Now they're actually THINKING, dammit! That's the last thing we wanted!"


Oh and this one is great... said more than once too:

"Moore has abused the First Amendment and is hurting us worse than the enemy has."

I don't quite know how it's possible to "abuse the first amendment." I imagine that only a person who does not truly understand and/or genuinely appreciate this freedom could say such a thing.

:fist

Rogue, you are a :ping pathetic, liberal sack of shit. These men and women are out there defneding YOUR (unfortunate) right to say and think whatever you want, and you post this type of crap? You just dont' get it, do you? Freedom DOES have limits and freedom DOES have a price.

Yeah, I'd be pissed too. The nerve of this film to actually present a different point of view!

The problem with this film is that it presents a "different point of view" as if it were fact. Its one thing to ask questions about the facts that are given, but to completely distort and twist them to MAKE them say what you want them to sa is hardly "presenting a different point of view." Say it with me: its called LIEING.

More like, "they were perfectly vulnerable to eating up whatever bullshit we wanted to feed them until this came along and ruined it. Now they're actually THINKING, dammit! That's the last thing we wanted!"

Are you THAT arrogant? Do you realy think that these soldiers who enlist right out of high school from Smalltown, West Virginia have enough smarts to think at all? If they did, they would have gone to college and OCS and wouldn't be enlisted. Most of them aren't smart enough to evaluate such material in an objective matter; that's why they have commanding officers to TELL them what to do. And you are arrogant enough to assume that everyone in the country is as educated as you and can objectively evaluate the (non-)facts presented in this film? Yeah, liberals are the freinds of the weak and weary in this country...

I don't quite know how it's possible to "abuse the first amendment." I imagine that only a person who does not truly understand and/or genuinely appreciate this freedom could say such a thing.

Spoken like a card-carrying member of the ACLU. I'd say I don't quite understand you or your post, but I do. Of course there are limitations to freedom of speech! You can't run into a crowded theater and yell "FIRE." You know why? Because its a threat to public safety and order; it endangers your fellow Americans. The Supreme Court has said over and over that the right to free speech, which you liberals love to take to the edge of decency and beyond, can be limited if it presents an imminent danger to the pubic. Now I'm sure that you're sitting there in your nice cozy house going "what imminent danger," but these men and women of our military in Iraq are in pretty iminent danger IMO. You may say that I "do not truly unerstand and/or genuinely appreciate this freedom," but I say that you and your kind have time and again taken the first ammendment and used it as your personal soap box to cram whatever garbage fancies you at the time down the throats of Joe American who doesn't want to see it. The Constitution and the Bill of Rights has become a piece of toilet paper that liberals use to wipe their ass with: a convenient invention when needed, but utterly useless most of the time.

I hope some terrorist never tries to attack your city, but if they do maybe you'll think twice before spouting this type of bullshit to the soldiers who show up to defened you. Thanks for hating this country. In short, go off somewhere. :hj

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by TruckStuff
:fist spit, piss, spit ....

Dude have you seen the movie or are you just taking the word of others about it? I've yet to see it so I wouldn't know if it's a bunch of lies or not.

As for the Soldiers, they are doing what they are trained for. I sure wouldn't want them to question their COF and I would hope they believed they were doing the right thing there. Personally I think they are doing a good job just that the job they are doing is predicated on BS thanks to the Dub and his nefarious network of Neocons Handlers who used the horror and shock of 9/11 plus faulty intel to mislead the American Public into supporting the Dub's "Excellent Adventure in Iraq"

[rogue]

Originally posted by blade
Geezus, you'll never get it will you. Why don't you move to Iwreck?

So sorry. I forgot this was the Political BS Forum *As long as all topics are pro-Bush, Army, and other neo-con agendas.*

Rogue, you are a ing pathetic, liberal sack of shit. These men and women are out there defneding YOUR (unfortunate) right to say and think whatever you want, and you post this type of crap? You just dont' get it, do you? Freedom DOES have limits and freedom DOES have a price.

So wait, the armed forces are defending my freedom by being over in Iraq and killing so called "terrorists"? Thats a new one. Typical from your point of view though, as is your knee-jerk reaction to anything badmouthed about the Army. Oh yes, I get it alright. So the price of freedom is being a mindless, brainwashed zombie that swallows everything the government spoon-feeds them huh?

The problem with this film is that it presents a "different point of view" as if it were fact. Its one thing to ask questions about the facts that are given, but to completely distort and twist them to MAKE them say what you want them to sa is hardly "presenting a different point of view." Say it with me: its called LIEING.

Kind of like what ole Dub did with the WMD information, the Saddam-Al Qaeda link and the invasion of Iraq, eh? Talk about distortion of facts! But alas, I suppose that when a movie distorts the facts, its complete and utter heresy, but when a right-leaning President does it, then its quite alright! I love the double-standards you neo-cons consistently adhere to and completely ignore

Are you THAT arrogant? Do you realy think that these soldiers who enlist right out of high school from Smalltown, West Virginia have enough smarts to think at all? If they did, they would have gone to college and OCS and wouldn't be enlisted. Most of them aren't smart enough to evaluate such material in an objective matter; that's why they have commanding officers to TELL them what to do. And you are arrogant enough to assume that everyone in the country is as educated as you and can objectively evaluate the (non-)facts presented in this film? Yeah, liberals are the freinds of the weak and weary in this country...

They may have not much in the way of smarts, but they shouldn't be lied to either. Anyways, if they can't handle the "powerful influence" of a propagandist movie like Fahrenheit 9/11, then what the hell are they doing fighting a war and carrying guns? No wonder some are going apeshit and killing women and children. Some "professional" army

Spoken like a card-carrying member of the ACLU. I'd say I don't quite understand you or your post, but I do. Of course there are limitations to freedom of speech! You can't run into a crowded theater and yell "FIRE." You know why? Because its a threat to public safety and order; it endangers your fellow Americans. The Supreme Court has said over and over that the right to free speech, which you liberals love to take to the edge of decency and beyond, can be limited if it presents an imminent danger to the pubic. Now I'm sure that you're sitting there in your nice cozy house going "what imminent danger," but these men and women of our military in Iraq are in pretty iminent danger IMO. You may say that I "do not truly unerstand and/or genuinely appreciate this freedom," but I say that you and your kind have time and again taken the first ammendment and used it as your personal soap box to cram whatever garbage fancies you at the time down the throats of Joe American who doesn't want to see it. The Constitution and the Bill of Rights has become a piece of toilet paper that liberals use to wipe their ass with: a convenient invention when needed, but utterly useless most of the time.

You basically restate the same crap as you did above, albeit in a slightly different way. Yeah I'm sure you'd love it if there everything was censored by the government a la communism. I'll agree that there is a limit to free speech, but comparing this movie to running into a crowded thater and yelling "FIRE" is about as an ludicrous example as they come. I'd love to see what kind of hypocritical stuff you'd say if a liberal president did some questionable things and a right-wing filmmaker made a movie bashing him. In short, I can see that Michael Moore's little film has riled up you neo-cons more than expected. WTG, Mike

[sbp]

Originally posted by Karchiveur
If theres one film i want to see its this one, it hits the local theater nearing the end of this month...
Bah ya...
if only the army would show all these guys both sides of view before they went to war. how many ya think would actually sign up? no nearly as many.. thus, its damn near brainwash (too strong of a word i know) what the army/gov' is doing to there soldiers. HAH! good too see peeps 2nd guessing about going to war... because most are only hearing on side of it all!

You say both sides of view should be shown but are going to a one-sided "documentary" that has dubious tales presented as fact. Brilliant Karchiveur. cratch

[MK888]

But you can accept the fact that what you might die for is a lie, if you were a soldier?
I'm sorry but I couldn't!

We went to war for several reasons.

A. To remove a dictator, who should have been removed from power 10 years ago. ( and yes oil does play a part)
B. We thought he had WMD based on bad intel (we found out that he did not, or they were moved to another country, or they are still buried out in the desert)
C. He has been harbouring terrorists, and or allowing them to operate in his country.
(Is not the biggest threat in iraq led by an al-queda member? A very high ranking one? Do you think that happened overnight?)

I see bad intel, I see bad decisions, but I dont see any lies. A decision based on bad information is not a lie, as much as you want it to be......

[TruckStuff]

Originally posted by Red Dawn
Dude have you seen the movie or are you just taking the word of others about it? I've yet to see it so I wouldn't know if it's a bunch of lies or not.

As for the Soldiers, they are doing what they are trained for. I sure wouldn't want them to question their COF and I would hope they believed they were doing the right thing there. Personally I think they are doing a good job just that the job they are doing is predicated on BS thanks to the Dub and his nefarious network of Neocons Handlers who used the horror and shock of 9/11 plus faulty intel to mislead the American Public into supporting the Dub's "Excellent Adventure in Iraq"

As usual, Red, you completely miss the point of my post.

The content of the movie is irrelevant. What I am angry about is the fact that liberals come along spouting venom about Bush and our military and how Kerry would be so much better with NO regard for anything except defeating Bush. You can second guess military leaders all you want, but the fact of the matter is that they have a hell of a lot more guts than you or I. They are willing to put themselves in harm's way to defend this country and everything it stands for (including YOUR right to hate GWB), and you (the royal you, not you personally) completely miss that b/c you are so blinded by hatred for conservatives, GWB, and everything we stand for. THAT is the point of the post.

Will respond to Rogue a bit later... gotta run.