Taxpayers lash out over $700B bailout plan

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FlyingPenguin
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Taxpayers lash out over $700B bailout plan

Post by FlyingPenguin »

"It's our money! Let these companies die," added Claudio from Plainville, Conn.
http://money.cnn.com/2008/09/21/news/ec ... tm?cnn=yes
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TheSovereign
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Post by TheSovereign »

i been sayin that! LET THEM DIE
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Post by EvilHorace »

What truely amazes me to no end is that our government is willing to use our money to bail out these companies AND spend countless $$ in Iraq (after we destroyed it in the first place) yet they tell us that Social Security (which IS our money that they were suppose to invest wisely) will someday be no more.
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Post by Lmandrake »

Can't let them die. They are too big to fail. AIG in particular.

Reason Number One: Given the huge panic sell-offs in the US and foreign stock exchanges last week, there was a real danger of a panic induced crash that might have been very very serious.

Reason Number Two: Republican Administration - "No Billionaire Left Behind"

700 billion is 155 Nimitz Class carriers or 3.5 Apollo programs taking the 1969 cost and adjusting for inflation.

Meanwhile, McCain is still running attack ads darkly intoning that Obama will raise your taxes. As if he will not if elected. Take the pledge John - Promise America you will not raise taxes....

So Sov: Tell me why government regulation over mortgage backed securities and mortgage lending would have been a bad thing.
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Post by TruckStuff »

Lmandrake wrote:So Sov: Tell me why government regulation over mortgage backed securities and mortgage lending would have been a bad thing.
Mortgages are a symptom, not the problem. The problem is the massive deregulation of investment banking over the last 15-20 years that have allowed for the creation of all these phony derivatives, allowing banks to claim "assets" that don't really exist. Combine money that doesn't exist in the first place with the massive leveraging (against *real* liabilities) that has been going on (again, thanks to deregulation), and you have a recipe for disaster as soon as someone wakes up and goes "holy crap!"

I really don't like the idea of bailing out all these companies. Some I understand; I agree that AIG, Fannie or Freddie failing would have been a catastrophe for the global economy. But if we bail out all of these companies without making changes to prevent this situation from happening again, we have done nothing. We will repeat 1980s S&L's again.
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Post by TheSovereign »

this has nothing to do with de-regulation this has everything to do with business's making bad decisions PRICES NEED TO BE PAID THESE COMPANIES MUST DIE. we are rewarding the over zealous greed that exists in the market right now with this bailout.

here's how this is supposed to work
i own biz. i make good decisions. biz makes money. i r happy
i own biz. i make bad decisions. biz loses money. biz goes bankrupt. i apply at starbucks.

here's how it goes right now
i own biz. i make stupid decisions. biz loses money. government bails me out. i r happy

the deregulation is not the culprit the aholes lending money to people who had no hope of paying them are.

the deflation bubble of fake money (aka credit) had to pop sooner or later. the federal government has one too (national debt) all we did is move the creditors bubble into that of the united states debt. this was a stupid decision by everyone involved which crosses the partisan bridge from the democrat congress to the republican president. if anything anywhere proves these people are incompetent to run a society its this crock of a bailout!!

i can explain how mad i am right now and im not kidding either. im seriously seething at how stupid people have handled this. these companies must fail right now.

and i feel i have to explain something... stocks are bullshit yes complete and total bullshit. they have no monetary value other than perceived value unlike that of US currency which has the backing up the government. stock prices can goto 0 even if the company is in good financial standings... just ask IBM. when u buy stocks you are buying monopoly money in the hopes that one day u can trade it in for the real stuff unless you are into corporate buy outs, unlikely.
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Post by TruckStuff »

TheSovereign wrote:this has nothing to do with de-regulation this has everything to do with business's making bad decisions PRICES NEED TO BE PAID THESE COMPANIES MUST DIE. we are rewarding the over zealous greed that exists in the market right now with this bailout.
Yes, they made bad decisions. But these problems are not isolated to the last few years. There are systemic problems with our banking system, brought on by ongoing lobbying to loosen the trading rules, that will continue to haunt us if they are not fixed.
TheSovereign wrote:stocks are bullshit yes complete and total bullshit. they have no monetary value other than perceived value unlike that of US currency which has the backing up the government.
Umm... I hate to break it to you but stocks are no more bullshit than any fiat currency. US dollars haven't been backed by anything tangible for more than 50 years. This works great, so long as folks don't lose faith in us.gov. But if they do, US$ won't be worth the cost of paper used to print it.

And TBH, this is the one thing that is going to save us right now: every other economy in the world has been rocked by this debt/financial derivative BS. So there isn't a country in the world that can afford to come in and buy everything up right now. That's the only thing that is going to keep us from becoming a territory of Russia or China.
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Post by Lmandrake »

Sov: Your model works in a 1700's economy, not now.

TruckStuff: I agree. The mortgage thing just stands out in my mind because once mortgages become commodities the only incentive left in the system was to create more and more of them, and acquire more, regardless of two fundamental questions that nobody bothered to ask: 1. Can these borrowers pay this loan back, and 2. What if the collateral loses value.

Well, its nice to know we don't disagree on everything.
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Post by Pugsley »

I will say that I don't think the stock market should even exist. its a loan system for a company to use to get money to grow.. then when they do they don't buy back all the stock and return their debt to 0... they leave it out there and make more stocks.. then what happens when there is all the stocks out there and the company decides to close shop... they just STOLE all that money they made with selling stock to the public.
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Executioner
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Post by Executioner »

So where is this $700b coming from? Social Security again or do we just print more money?
Now oil made it's biggest jump ever, $25 a barrel to $130 as of today. Thanks uncle Sam.
http://money.cnn.com/2008/09/22/markets ... 2008092215
Dollar also sinks:
http://money.cnn.com/2008/09/22/markets ... 2008092214
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Post by Lmandrake »

There are three alternatives. Increase the federal deficit, raise more revenue through tax increases (or get the economy to boom so tax receipts go up) or cut federal spending.

Given the fact that no President since Eisenhower has reduced federal spending and only two (Clinton and W) each balanced the budget for two years each and the economy is in a s***hole, the answer is likely increased taxes. I don't think its likely that anything will happen other than increased taxes.
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Post by TruckStuff »

Executioner wrote:So where is this $700b coming from? Social Security again or do we just print more money?
When has that ever stopped this administration? Regardless of how you feel about it, we've spent billions and billions in Iraq, and federal spending has gone through the roof in the last eight years, in spite of all promises to the contrary.

Of course, the spending motto of every administration since FDR has been "screw it... spend now, our kids will deal with the consequences, we'll be dead." So what else is new?

I've already written my rep and senators in Congress voicing opposition to this (or at least asking for an explanation of their position). Hope everyone else is doing the same.
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Executioner
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Post by Executioner »

Looks like the FBI are investigating some of these companies. FINALLY!

http://news.yahoo.com/story//ap/2008092 ... estigation
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Post by ZYFER »

Deregulation whether you like it or not, is part of the problem. It allows the overwhelming greed to get out of hand and create such messes that we have now. Another problem is lack of penalties. CEOs and executives can reap in the benefits for years, then jump ship with all the money they collected, leaving everyone else to go down with it. What about seizing the assets of those people who are in fact part of the problem. Why should they be getting rewards and bonuses for dragging a company down and the economy with it?

By the way, investigating isn't much at all, have to actually do something after all the "investigating" is done.

They are already trying to push the buyouts with fear, pointing out, there will be a "recession". Though I would like to know what world they live in, a "recession" is already here. This mess has tipped further along. Target is taking a hit as well as GE Money Bank (supplier of many retailer credit cards) for the increasing rise of people not paying their credit cards.

The companies inevitably need to fail. If you bail them out, it sets a bad example for the others. Other banks will see it as "ok" to take these kinds of risks, increasing the problems ten-fold.

Why should these mortgage companies not be allowed to fail? These companies gave out a large number of mortgages to people they knew could not pay them. That isn't just irresponsible, that is just bad business.
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