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I admit I don't follow other world events as much as many so I'm just curious if I have my thoughts right here.

Israel is an ally of us so we defend them, but is that the right thing to do in this case?

If I have my facts right it looks like the Arabs just can't stand the Jews and will do anything to kill them. Arab countries have tried how many times to attack Israel only to see that lil county kick their butts and embarrass them in return.

Then I see all this talk about wanting peace yet the suicide bombers continue to kill innocent Israelies, while the talk is going on about a cease fire even. It's like they really don't want peace and instead are using Israel retaliations (which they force) as a way to get sympathy. Israel retaliates as they should and as we would. As any country would when their innocent people are being targeted.

Gee, sounds like terrorism doesn't it with them targeting innocent civilians and not military installations. From what I've seen and know it just looks like Palistan will not be happy till the Jews are all gone. Seems dead is better to them because the Jews are on their "Holy land". And in the name of Allah, or whatever that so-called god is called.

Israel was formed legally if I have my facts right but since the 40's Arab countries have despised them and have tried numerous times to eradicate them.

I know Israel isn't all innocent here either. Didn't they sell some of our military secrets? And I saw where some of their own miltary personell signed a petition against attacking Palistan. I haven't followed it that closely to know all the facts around their reasons.


Still, all I can think about here is how many Palistans were celebrating in their streets when terrorists took out the Pentagon and the WTC. Along with burning American flags. It's very difficult to feel sorry for people like that.




*on another somewhat related front

And now the Arabs sign some kind of proclation that helps to protect Iraq. Iraq agreed to certain things only because they were promised other Arab countries would see an attact on Iraq as an attack on all Arab states. hmmm, doesn't Iraq make it a habbit of going back on agreements.

I hate lumping everyone into a group and hating them but it seems the Arab nations make it very hard fro me not to do exactly that. I agree that Isreal is not all inocent but it seems they have turned their heads and not retaliatied when the Palestinians carried out suicide attacks and all they got for their restraint was more suiside attacks. As far as I am concerned enough is enough and it is time for the Arab nations and Palestianians to reep what they have sewed. And I hope they start with Yassir Arafat. No doubt in my mind it is going to get pretty ugly and a lot of blood is going to be spilled before this is any where near over.

The real issue is that Israel really does not belong where it is, and the only reason it's still there is because the USA funds it with an incredible amount of money. Arafat is certainly no angel there, but Sharon is even worse in my mind. For anything to happen Sharon is going to have to either back down on his stances or be removed from office. The only way I see either of these things happening is if the USA does something about it.

"Arab countries have tried how many times to attack Israel only to see that lil county kick their butts and embarrass them in return."
Well it's going to be pretty tough for anyone to contend with a nation, no matter how small it may be, that is funded with such massive sums of money from the USA.

I in no way agree with celebrating about the attacks, but at the same time it's pretty easy to see why they had no sympathy for us. We support the nation that causes them so much trouble.

The attacks that happen over there are not one-sided. They are not just the Palestinians' fault and they are not just the Israelis' fault. Both sides need to find a way to stop the violence, but the only way I see that happening is if there is a reasonable settlement between the two, not just a cease fire that any single individual can break.

"or whatever that so-called God is called"
You can go ahead and say things like that, but I'd really recommend that you read up on what Islam is about before making comments on their religion.

JMan

We support the nation that causes them so much trouble.

What "trouble" has Israel caused them? From what I see Israel is just wanting to remain in peace but arabs don't want that. What am I missing? Israel never starts anything and who is it that does the terrorist attacks first.

Israel was granted their land legally right. They don't start any wars or do terrorist attacks till they are provoked. Or what am I missing here? Like I said, I do not know all the facts, I'm just going from what I see.




Sorry Jman, my hatred on allah started on sept. 11 of last year. It's going to take a long time for that to heal. If ever. But I agree not all think like that.

Some how I knew JMan would jump right in there and defend the Arab nations and Palastinians. It totoally amazes me how anyone can defend anyone that has anything to do with things like suicide bombing of inocent civilians or attacks like that of 9/11.

JMan I knowyou are part Arab and I do not concider you a terorist but if I were you I would denounce the actions of the Arab nations and Palastine rather than defend them.

The Arabs don't want Saddam removed. Yet the dictator enjoys himself while the Iraqi people suffer. This is another thing some blame the US for.

The Arabs have short memories indeed. They forget that with Saddam being around, he threatens their countries. It was Saddam who invaded a fellow Muslim countries {Iran and Kuwait}. It was Saddam who threatened to invade Saudi Arabia. And Saddam has used poison gas on his own people.

Moving on to Israel: Jonathan Pollard spied for Israel and passed military intelligence along to them. Then Israel was demanding that he be turned over to them. Who the hell are they to demand anything? Yeah they have that traitor in a body bag!

Don't forget the attack by Israel on the US Liberty in 1967.

No one in Montgomery County can forget Samuel Sheinbein. This guy killed someone and then fled to Israel. Israel would not turn him over! http://www.cnn.com/US/9908/24/sheinbein/

The Israel Lobby getting all that money off the US taxpayer for Israel is a continuing irritation.

Moving on to the Palestinians: The Palestinians don't understand the word compromise. Everytime they get something they raise the ante. Hell, Barek offered Arafat a good deal and Arafat turned it down.

The US sends envoy Anthony Zinni over there pushing for a ceasefire and how do the Palestinians respond? With bombings!

And the fact of the matter is many Muslims won't ever accept Israel existing.

Both sides don't want peace-they want war. Both sides don't want it to work and are too deeply ingrained in the cycle of violence to stop now. Each believes it can defeat the other on the battlefield. You can't force peace on people who don't want peace. And neither side wants to do what is necessary. So screw 'em both.

I say keep the US out of it and let them fight it out. Same goes for Northern Ireland. And no more $ for either side.

IMHO we should just let them kill each other off... Both the Israel and Palestine are a major pain in the US ass...

Someone Jewish is going to defend the Israeli's, while someone Arab or Muslim will defend the Palestinians. Here is a newsflash for all your a$$es: There are people out here who are damn sick and tired of both sides! :|

I'm for just removing the funding and taking away all the fancy warmachines we gave Israel and letting the two sides work it out in some ways, though I have my doubts about how that would work. I doubt Israel would last a week with how much the Arab world hates them. The only way I see things working is if the two reach a reasonable compromise, but that's much easier said than done.

And dad: I do not defend any horrible things that either side may have done.

JMan

Both sides claim they MUST have ... Jerusulem? It is 'holy' land.
One or both sides won't share the city.
Israel, as pointed out above, is legal. They were a 'spoil' of war, WWII I think. They are legal, much as we are a legal country. Recognized by all, even those who hate them. Simple logic says if others attack them, proclaim they must die, then they should stop those who do/say so. CERTAINLY if it means they get bombed repeatedly. We get hit with one attack ( a large attack but geeez: the first estimates I heard were 50,000 people could be in the trade towers at any one moment ) and we are ready to nuke the earth to get even. The fact that all countries in power when Israel was created agreed ( ? ) means they have a right to exist, and to defend themselves. Like the US, or any other country.

My question has always been why do Palesteniens deserve their own country? Surely there are dozens of other 'factions' or groups amongst the Arab countries who would like their own country. Wars determine the borders of a country ( have any countries added to or lost ground since Hawaii became a state other than through warfare?? ). Why would other arab people wish to go to war with Israel, who basically wins any war they are in because they have the US behind them, decide what to do and DO it then sit back and let the chips fall.... why would other arab countries support a viscious war for the PLO? Who gave the PLO a 'right' to have a country? If it's simply because arabs hate jews then tough: I'll mail some money to Israel to help them. I mean what chicken shits: we hate Israel so we will pay others to wage war on them? Sounds like Bush's definition of terrorism to me.

Instead ( IF this is the case ) give them land from another arab country. Lord knows there are enough larger arab nations in the area.

Even if Israel wasn't around many in that region would still hate the US. Its like what Evil said in another thread: we have, they don't have.

The US gives an increadible amount of money to Egypt too.

Did you all know that the Arab nations wanted all that land for themselves? They didn't want a Palestine there.

Sharon is an arrogant ass of a warmonger.

Arafat is unwilling or unable to control his radical elements. His time is past and he is useless twoface liar.
Arafat: 'I hope I will be a martyr' Yas ser, you may get your wish.


There are but 2 choices: compromise or conquer.

Perhaps Israel should have kept the captured Sinai Peninsula and put the Palestinians onto it. Then the Palestinians could take the matter up with their Egyptian brothers. That leads to more questions: How come all these Arab countries haven't helped the Palestinians and offered to take the Palestinians into their countries? How come these Arabs have left the Palestinians languishing in refugee camps? So much for Arab brothership!

Originally posted by JMan
I'm for just removing the funding and taking away all the fancy warmachines we gave Israel and letting the two sides work it out in some ways, though I have my doubts about how that would work. I doubt Israel would last a week with how much the Arab world hates them. The only way I see things working is if the two reach a reasonable compromise, but that's much easier said than done.

And dad: I do not defend any horrible things that either side may have done.

JMan

Letting the two sides work it out in some ways is for many Arabs taking over Israel.

Between the two sides Israel is the more flexible one. Israel has given back land and it still hasn't led to peace. It went into Lebanon after having to go up in there because Arafat and Islamic groups were using that country as a launch pad for terrorist acts. Then it left Lebanon. With what Barak offered, Israel was putting themselves at risk of being overrun easily but Israel is not going to sit there and commit demographic suicide! The Palestinians want it all their way and don't want to give up anything.

So a reasonable compromise was offered. Arafat said no. He was afraid of the radical Palestinians elements he has unleashed against Israel before could be used to take himself down. For any peace to happen the Palestinians are going to have to take out Hamas and other terrorist groups. Israel had to do this shortly after becoming a nation.

I feel if I had to choose sides, I would have to go with Israel here. I never hear about Israelis opening fire onto busloads of Palestinian citizens. I have never heard of an Israeli suicide bomber. Israel is almost (almost) never the aggressor, they only fight back when attacked.

BUT... they tend to take it too far.

The whole mess in the Mid East scares the crap outta me. I don't want a WWIII started over some crappy desert land.

Damn People are just plain screwed up in that area of the world.


I knew there were some reasons to not be 100% for Israel, thanks sbp. That's what I get for always reading the sports page first and avoiding the rest of the paper. So I guess we still help them because we think they're among the few in that area we trust. History from "that area" has proven those we trust eventually come back to stab us in the back.


The supposed reasoning for the sept. 11 terrorists attacks were because we support Israel and have military bases on "Holy land". Right?

Going by that reasoning there will never be peace in that area as long as Israel exists and as long as we have military bases on "Holy land". Ok, say they exterminate Israel and we remove all our military bases. Will that mean peace in that area?

I think we all know that answer. A country like Iraq will be themselves and get greedy and take over neighboring countries till they have them all. Or at least have them all in a war continuously. And say one country takes over them all, then will they stop? No way. remember the rest of the world are all "non believers and must be destroyed". Nazi Germany all over again. They have been fighting petty wars for centuries and they will not stop.

So what do we do. We support Israel and we know by doing that some control is kept. They despise Israel but they also fear them. Remember we also help other countries in that area. Yes, many of which just signed an agreement with Iraq that protects Iraq and SoDam InSane. Some thanks huh.

Damned if we do and damned if we don't.



Or do I have this all bassackwards? This is just conclusions I get from reading and seeing things on TV.

I in no way agree with celebrating about the attacks, but at the same time it's pretty easy to see why they had no sympathy for us. We support the nation that causes them so much trouble.

How does Israel cause them so much trouble? They want to be left alone but the those assholes just can't get that through their thick rags.